We are slowly getting more detail on what to expect when Stagecoach move in to Plymouth in a few weeks time.
Thanks to Brian McGuire and Steve Mutly for this latest position:
From Stagecoach East Scotland, Tridents 17289/90/94/95/97/99/329/30/37/18004
17294
© (cc) Calum Cape July 2015
From Stagecoach Manchester, Tridents 17002/5/6/10/11/38/51/66/670,
17005
© (cc) Mikey September 2013
From Stagecoach Manchester, Darts 33865/69-76
33870
© (cc) EastleighBusman December 2014
From Stagecoach Cumbria and North Lancashire, Enviro200's 37113-20
37113
© Ben Beaver. Noted on delivery to Plymouth on 14th August. At least 5 of these are now in Plymouth. (Thanks Ben for the photo)
From Exeter, Solo's 47084/86-91
47088
© (cc) Barry Lewis November 2012
I am sure there was a report of Enviro 400’s heading our way recently as well. Another report was of Tridents from Cheltenham & Gloucester.
As always reports are welcome at this very busy and important time!
Any idea of what buses are being used on certain routes? Although I think the E200s will be on the 1/X1
ReplyDeletedoubt it!
DeleteGuessing but I reackon E200s more likely on the 2 2A as 1 X1 almost certainly will be DD if they have any sense - which i am sure they have!
What's the point, before Blue Flash most 83/86 services where using B6 single deckers, with the occasional trident for school runs. The E200s have enough seats for Tavistock - Plymouth services. I think some of the Solos will be on the 2/2a and maybe those Manchester Darts. Most of the Tridents will probably work the 3. I believe the two 60 plate E400s might move to Plymouth for X38 duties.
Deleteyeah, see your point there, but they do often see heavy loads on these services, especially the ones going through Derriford at peak times. On the other had they are more frequent under SC so maybe SDs will be enough?
DeleteJust how many Tridents do you think the 3 needs?! I'd suspect the Solos to be for the Dartmouth and Tavistock town services.
DeleteI really can't see Stagecoach putting single-decks on the 1/X1 right now. Both operators currently run deckers and I'd expect Stagecoach to do the same, partly as it sends out a far more confident message than 'downgrading' to significantly smaller buses would. They might possibly go more single-deck over time, if that's what the loadings dictate, but I'd be surprised if they do it straightaway.
If you look how the Hop2 between Exeter and Newton Abbot works, between 6am and 12pm its double deckers, then 12pm to 2pm a mix of single deckers and double deckers, from 2pm it goes back to fully double deckers until 7pm. If Stagecoach see the need for double deckers on some journeys they can simply swap a DD for a SD where loading aren't as busy.
DeleteAnonymous 17 August at 16:02... There are only two buses on the X38 so would expect only one to be Plymouth based, the other to stay at Exeter. I believe there will probably be at least two of the GOLD route buses based at Plymouth.
DeleteThere's a surprise More passed down rubbish!, Nothing remotely new except the Enviro 200s! X Reg plate tridents is hardly new!
ReplyDeleteWhat were you expecting, a completely brand new fleet fresh out of the ADL factory?
DeletePlymouth was bought when the order was done.They will be replaced when new stock is ordered or an emergency order is placed.Stagecoach can not just turn up at ADL and demand buses.They have to join the queue like everyone else.Look at Northampton same thing happened and they got like 37 new buses after a few months.Be patient .
DeleteAs expected really, Plymouth gets many buses that were ending their lives around the UK fleet. From an enthusiast point of view I'm happy to see a load of older Tridents. It did make me smile rather though, where are all those First haters that were rejoicing that Stagecoach, or anyone, were to take over running of their routes and replacing all First's knackered fleet? The locals will really see the difference Stagecoach bring. In with a load of S & T reg Tridents and soon to be out with 55 reg Tridents & 08 reg Enviro 400s!! Doubtless over the next year they will modernise the fleet, they'll have to as the older Tridents aren't DDA compliant. The danger is that the far from fresh fleet being brought in could potentially see Stagecoach lose the chance of gaining public good will as the 'new operator on the block' if the aging fleet struggles reliability wise.
ReplyDeleteBut the 55 reg and 08 reg buses are the P&R fleet - which are hanging around a while longer into 2016 so these wont disappear until new buses arrive early in 2016. The rest of the First fleet are a lot older than these so the Tridents wont actually seem any older than the buses they replace.
DeleteFlippin' 'eck! What do people expect? Many of these are clearly going to be temporary - as has been said, there are new buses due next year and also new buses for the existing SD fleet later this year (which may, or may not, allow some newer cascades to Plymouth). Full marks to Stagecoach for getting a sizeable fleet together at short notice. It's guaranteed they won't look their age inside or out and the interiors will be far more appealing than the interiors of the current First buses and passengers WILL notice that difference. Stagecoach buses in my experience are always presentable whatever their age, it's clearly something that Stagecoach (rightly) takes very seriously. Similarly there's no reason to expect reliability problems - okay some of the transferred stock will be something of an unknown quantity but Stagecoach will thoroughly check them over and review the engineering records before they hit the roads of Devon. It may even be that they spread the risk (such as there is any) by moving some native buses to Plymouth and running some of the transferred stock in Exeter/Exmouth/Torquay/Barnstaple, we shall have to wait and see. Whatever, Stagecoach will do everything they can to minimise any potential problems, you can be sure of that.
DeleteDon't forget either that some of Stagecoach's operations elsewhere will also be 'making do' for a while as a direct result of this, for example, wherever the YY14 Enviros or the ex-Exeter Solos would have been going had Plymouth not come on the horizon.
Interesting to the return of some Tridents that have run in Devon before!
I'm not having a go at Stagecoach, they general turn out their older buses better than First. The re-painted S8--BWC Tridents for instance look great for their age. They were never going to be able to bring in a new fleet straight from word go, as I made clear in my first post. My points were that some people seem to delight in having a go at all the bad things about First, and imply that with Stagecoach things will get way better. One person said judge Stagecoach by what they have in 2020. If First were still there in 2020 they'd have to have a more modern fleet too! Doubtless Dartmouth will get the ex Exeter Solos, let's hope the new paint will improve their qualities! Seen more of that batch being towed or with faults than the Merc 709Ds before them.
DeleteI bet in a few years things will be quite different, Stagecoach will doubtless find a way of making a profit out of the Plymouth business. I'd have to ask how though? First ran older buses at low fares and couldn't make things work. A cut back network would be one way, or higher fares. Neither of those sound good.
I'm sure we all hope that whatever happens it is positive for the travellers of the city.
Apparently there is new stuff on order for next year though so the older stuff may just be a temporary thing......
ReplyDeleteOnly the 12 park and rides to replace the 12 buses staying on loan from First
DeleteHmmm.... Virtually new e200s replace W reg B6s, 55 plates replace S reg Darts and 04 plate Solos replace W reg examples. Granted the Tridents are a virtual like for like replacement age-wise but overall much better.
ReplyDeleteAs someone else said, did you really expect a fully brand new fleet?
I've also heard deckers from East Scotland are heading down, 51-55 plates. Is this correct?
ReplyDeleteNo matter how big a customer Stagecoach is for ADL they can't just "magic" new buses out of nowhere. OK, they could divert new vehicles from elsewhere, but very often new vehicles are accompanied by marketing campaigns and revised schedules which might already be in operation/registered.
ReplyDeleteIn a Carlisle flood type situation everyone is going to help out and be understanding, but having built a case and presented it to Stagecoach at a national level for new buses a subsidiary company isn't going to be too pleased to see their order diverted off down to South Devon. It's not like buying the latest model bus from EFE; real vehicles have to be justified, and in some cases are hard won, with high level subsidiary management getting nervous (not in a First kind of way, tis true) if the investment doesn't bring rewards.
September 2015 is one thing. September 2016 will be a good benchmark of what can be achieved, and September 2020 will really be the proof of the pudding.
The BusZone website reports two Scania/Enviro 400's - 15434/5 - transferring from Oxford to the 'South West'.
ReplyDeleteFor the age they are they all look Allright! Most likely down to good care and maintainence like PCB have, some of there Older darts look good for there age!
ReplyDeleteI doubt the optares will be seen in Plymouth, they'll be for the 89 in tavi, the 90's etc in Dartmouth and the waitrose contract
ReplyDeleteIn reply to the various people complaining that Stagecoach are sending in elderly Tridents, there are reliable sources promising new vehicles in 2016, almost certainly mainly to replace the hired P & R fleet.
ReplyDeleteAs other posters have stated, Stagecoach cannot magic new vehicle out of thin air, the Single deck fleet will be modern & 100% DDA compliant from day 1.
September is the peak time for Double-Decks across the UK with schools going back.
In future the only First vehicles that will be seen in Plymouth or south Devon will be 12/13 year old cascades heading down the A38 to Cornwall & 15-20 year old vehicles heading back to the Yorkshire scrapyards.
Before anyone asks - I will happily confess to being a 'Firstbus hater' of the first order,(Sorry!!) it's been a very very good Summer: -
- Newcastle under Lyme/Hereford/Bracknell/Plymouth, retrenchment in Southampton & Somerset,
Luton Airport/Thameslink operation to Go-Ahead, Swansea ending operations of Streetcars, Reading Buses taking on route 90, Stagecoach taking on route 94, Greenline routes cut back to Ascot.
Roll on 2016!
You really are the sort of person who devalues not just this forum, but bus enthusiasts generally. You really should find a hobby you can positively take up.
DeleteWhy would a bus heading to Cornwall be using the A38. They'd bypass Plymouth on the A30. Berk!
DeleteI was told by a First Driver the other day that the 3 Enviros 33420/21/22 were partially paid for by Devon County Council,and there is a rumour that because of this they may actually transfer to Stagecoach. The other tridents 32760-62 are unaffected and will go to Cornwall
ReplyDeleteI was told by a driver....
DeleteCan't we have a separate forum just for anything anyone was told by a driver?
The covenant on those vehicles has now expired AFAIK. Be scared of canteen rumours
DeleteIt's been stated elsewhere (by a reliable source) that these buses have been purchased outright by First following the debacle that saw them transferred to Weston-super-Mare and swiftly returned. They will be loaned to Stagecoach for the P&R for six months as I understand it.
DeleteRubbish, no councils have been involved in payment of buses for years
DeleteIn fact I know of one council which not only was involved in payment for buses but actually owned them and supplied them to the operators on certain routes. And indeed the same council still owns several service buses which they operate at least when they are not broken.
DeleteDoesn't Transport for London own the Borismasters?
DeleteSurely no bus company is going to buy them at over £200,000 each - which raises the question of what will happen to them in 15 or 20 years' time.
The Borough of Poole purchased two Optare Solo SR's in 2009 liveried for use on the Route One town service. Both are still owned and operated on our behalf by Go South Coast (originally by Wilts and Dorset but currently Damory). Ken - Borough of Poole
DeleteCornwall Council owns the Park and Ride Citaros.
DeleteThey are all going to Cornwall.
DeleteFirstbus hater, plenty other examples like Somerset reducing operations and the continuing decline in East & West Lothian. Also looks like Greyhound is dying a death. Shame
ReplyDeleteGreyhound has died a death I believe, when I worked for first in Plymouth it was only the Welsh route running to London, if that's still the same then it's because it's supported by the Welsh government.
DeleteAnonymous 17 August 2015 at 21:16, why do I devalue this forum? I assume you take offence at my remarks re Firstbus?
ReplyDeleteI am hardly alone in disliking this company and don't see why I can't freely express my opinions.
Various people dislike Tescos, Starbucks, Southeastern Trains and various other Brands/Companies.
I have been interested in Transport for more than 40 years both personally & professionally and in that time of the many changes: -- Nationalisation/Privatisation/Regulation/De-Regulation & the many take-overs/mergers/technical & legal changes that have affected the Bus industry, Nothing has been so profoundly depressing as FirstBus, Ok so they are now slowly changing and with a decent Management team are finally turning things around but for me it's going to take sometime to 'De-toxify'.
Anon @23:26 - I agree with Anon @21:16's assessment of your posting.
DeleteYou devalue this forum by delighting in the destruction of jobs in places like Hereford (one of my old stamping grounds back when it was called Midland Red West) and Bracknell, and your total lack of concern for the poor sods who through no fault of their own find themselves with no livelihood.
I don't see people openly gloating when Tesco close another T&S or Express that hasn't performed to this weeks profitability level, or when another Starbuck's/CostaLottaCoffee franchise folds; that you seem to consider it acceptable to gloat when FirstGroup's corporate beancounters destroy jobs says a lot about you and none of it complementary.
I'd suggest you go and join the pathetic teenage First-hating whiners on the Southampton Bus Blog page as you'd fit in well with them, but frankly that site's forum is being dragged down to unusability by them without your help.
I don't think they are turning things around, the whole operation is a huge amount smaller than ten years ago and still they struggle to achieve the desired profit levels. I too am pleased that others who do it better are expanding to fill the resulting gaps but the sad thing is that countless passengers have suffered in the process, some permanently.
DeleteYou're quite welcome to your opinions, of course, and it's understandable in many ways. First leave me rather cold too after all their antics over the years. When I was growing up (many years ago!) enthusiasts tended to just enthuse and observe. These days many 'enthusiasts' seem to hate much more than enthuse, be it moaning about certain companies, liveries or (especially) types of vehicle. Perhaps it was ever thus and it's just that the internet, forums and social media have made it so much easier to vent anonymously to an audience. It seems a shame to me - the old adage 'if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything' appears to have gone out of the window a long time ago.... and I don't think we're really any better for it! Must be old age!
DeleteI agree there's no problem being a first hater, as an ex first employee who stuck with them for as long as I could I was shocked with the little regard they had for there employees and passengers, the vehicles were maintained on a shoestring, go to royal parade today and stand next to any first bus you'll certainly hear it rattling the bodywork will be shoddy/dented/faded also massive clouds of black exhaust fumes, they are the worst type of operator and I also hope to see there demise.
DeleteAnon 0709 - they clearly *are* turning things around, have you not seen today's post on this very blog? Granted some areas are improving faster than others and you could say that some places (Cornwall?) have been given a big helping hand (e.g. WG going plughole) but you still have to have the nouse to make the right decisions and decide which risks are worth taking but it's still going to be a big, big job, countrywide. Obviously they're still weeding out bits that they can't see a future for but luckilly there are still people/operators who are willing and able to plug most of the gaps.
DeleteFirst's previous top management made a lot of big mistakes, some have been very costly and others are still coming back to bite them now but to their credit they did spend many years desperately trying to avoid selling or closing the poorly performing areas. Other companies (such as Stagecoach) would have bitten that bullet sooner but First's chosen method of cutting and paring back was always going to result in ever-decreasing circles and was never going to be a long-term solution without a complete change away from top-down management thinking and a risk-averse company culture. It took them a long time to see the light and they've struggled to attract the right sort of people to effect the change. Indeed, some areas are still stuck in the old mold. It's like turning around a supertanker, it will take time - especially when they don't have the cash to pump into the business - but surely people can see signs of changes? [No, I don't work for First.]
Anon 18:11 and 23:26 - what a childish attitude. I'm not usually so strident but it really is unbefitting of a person who claims to have been interested for over 40 years in the UK's transport scene.
DeleteApart from the impact on drivers' jobs and terms and conditions (do you think drivers at Hereford or Bracknell will get the same pay and benefits from Yeomans or Courtney?), some people are losing their jobs.
Another impact is what happens when First pull out. You rejoice in flag waving their cuts in Somerset; I'm seeing 4 fully commercial First routes near where I live getting withdrawn. One is actually subject to competition so no loss but the others are being replaced with financial support from Somerset CC; I don't blame First for cutting them as they clearly didn't carry next to anyone (notably, no one has rushed in with a commercial replacement) and the resources are being redeployed by First in Bath. However, this now places further pressure on already stretched budgets; what price my local service will lose its Saturday service in a few months' time? I don't blame them (it makes sense) but to hear you trumpet their retrenchment as good news is galling!
I take no pleasure in firms cutting jobs because of the harm done to people directly or indirectly. Also, this is something we're seeing in all businesses at the moment though First have had to do more of it to get out of the self inflicted state that the previous CEO left them. Have Stagecoach not closed depots/are closing depots - (Cowdenbeath Brynmawr)? Have Arriva done so - Aberystwyth? North Northumberland?
Also, you seem to rejoice in the bad and ignore the good. The removal of the FTRs (a foolish concept to be honest) is actually to be applauded. Whilst there's some retrenchment in the Mendips, they are increasing their services within Bath and Bristol (again) and passenger figures are rising like for like. Then there's First Kernow which is in better shape than for a long time.
The sins of the past will take a long time to expunge and anyone sensible with an industry of buses knows that, knows how bad things were, and crucially can see that real change under Giles Fearnley is taking place.
Greyhound runs Swansea to Cardiff and that is being replaced by Cymru Clipper. The other Greyhound routes are long gone - at least 3 years ago.
DeleteBrynmawr is open the lost mileage was too much.Its operating as a Cwmbran outstation.
DeleteAs for Dartmouth, they will need 5 probably D/D for the 3 service (shared with plymouth) and 2 solos for the 90/90a service. Park and Ride will also need 1 bus, a solo i guess. And maybe 1 D/D for the X64 if they get one of the diagrams
ReplyDeleteThis Plymothian Transit has become full of hate over the years and it was all started by an unnamed Citybus driver who is very much disliked by many in the industry (he knows who it is). Do you think Plymothian Transit had had its day?
ReplyDeleteRe recent comments by various people.
ReplyDeletePLEASE can we we get Posters to use a Pseudonym....how can I or anyone else reply sensibly when everyone is called Anon/Anonymous? For all I know it may be just the same person posting everything.
However,on a general note,I live in the Midlands and I find this forum to be very refreshing compared to many others........at least members seem able to read,write and express themselves lucidly.
Some Midland forums are populated by children who are pure bus spotters with no interest in operations,only the bus numbers......if someone hates FirstBus,good luck to them,but I am interested in ALL buses (except London) and if operators were perfect and did nothing controversial what would we find to comment on.
In summary,I am very glad I found this forum........believe me it is very good compared to most others but..........PLEASE CAN WE ENCOURAGE THE USE OF A PSEUDONYM WHEN POSTING .
Jesus its colder in the room than Count Dracula's castle. People disliking First Bus others digging at Citybus. Either way its a little unfair. I have to say that First bus have always been a little disappointing to me, and I seldom used their buses because of that. Citybus seem to have improved following the Go Ahead takeover, but I would prefer to see a "continuous" brand, I.E no Flash or Go Cornwall Bus. Personally I think the Cornwall outfit should have a rebrand like Salisbury Reds. Kernow Blackbus? maybe.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.flickr.com/photos/aderoberts/20044719903/ Looks like the Stagecoach Exeter Solo's have been repainted.
ReplyDeleteSome people really need to get over themselves. Its so easy being a keyboard warrior with the safety of an anonymous account isn't it. I read this blog because I have an interest in buses and with that a passing interest in the bus industry. I could not less if people hate/love/want to marry First or Citybus, and as for suggesting a unnamed citybus employee have started some sort of hate campaign. Well my friend you really need to get out a little more!
ReplyDeleteBlimey, chill pill people!
ReplyDeleteLets just put a few things into perspective, Stagecoach in my view have been proactive, they have obtained a fair amount of vehicles at relatively short notice for the new operations in Plymouth, the P&R fleet moving over temporarily is a good move by both First and Stagecoach, its a bit of good PR from First in saying, look, we know there will be disruption, but we are helping the new operator out with some vehicles to make the changeover as smooth as possible, P&R work is generally looked at as being 'primary' work and requires new or newer vehicles than other work, so I presume new stock will be diverted/ordered for Plymouth ready for when the loan vehicles return to First, to come up with a batch of low floor deckers, a batch of 14 plate E200's plus various odds and sods at relatively short notice for a large takeover like Plymouth is no mean feet, look at the company in 2/3 years time, judge the fleet then, if it is still ageing and nothing being replaced then that will be because it isn't making money and First weren't wrong to sell up, if its all been replaced and expansion undertaken then you will know its all going Ok and they are happy with the financial return it is making. Cast your mind back to 1996 when we got bought out in Exeter and Torbay, our fleet consisted entirely of elderly Transits and Merc 709d's and batches of newer dual door Ivecos, within weeks we had elderly Leyland Tigers on the X38, nearly new Javelins on the X46, within 12 months these had all been replaced by brand new coaches, we had a large batch of diverted 709d's delivered to Torbay and Exrter replacing elderly Transits, we had deckers arrive in Torbay for the first time in years, we could actually operate a proper OT service and offer extra capacity for the amount of students we have arrive every summer, that was 1996, in 1997 we had brand new low floor vehicles for the 12, more deckers arrive for extra capacity, more larger vehicles arrive in Exrter (admittedly elderly Nationals, VR's etc) but the trend was starting, look at the fleet in 2000, then 2005, then 2010 and now 2015, who would of imagined regular batches of brand new deckers arriving in Devon, brand new batches of Solo's etc etc etc, its been a big change, this will happen in Plymouth, give it time, the first noticeable change will be the P&R in 6 months time, then look again in 12 months and monitor thereafter, I expect things to change regular and it will be interesting to see it develop, and i wouldn't rule out expansion, the network at entry time is a skeleton to show that they have arrived and not biting of more than they can cope with initially, but I would expect expansion on to anything that could return a profit etc etc, interesting times ahead!!!
I know Graham allows most comments to pass through here, but surely the First/Citybus attacks on one another could be stopped, as in reality it is spamming the comments section of the blog?
ReplyDeleteI do try to allow most comments go through but it has been getting a bit heated here. I have stopped a few going through though and any personal attacks will be stopped in future too.
DeleteGraham - think you're doing an excellent job and PT grows in strength. I think we all recognise that both First and PCB have made decisions that have been questionable.
DeleteIt's a line to tread between what is informed, fair and balanced comment and those that transgress that line. Think you have been even handed but worth saying that we all have a responsibility to treat others with respect as well as posting stuff that is not unreasonably partisan and is accurate.
1/X1 Plymouth to Tavistock will the pre 9.30am fare of £1 still be available with Stage coach ?
ReplyDeleteYes
DeleteStagecoach are worse than first Devon and Cornwall. Always late and now my daughter is going to be very late for her first day at University of St Mark and St John (Marjon) Plymouth. Wish Plymouth city's were same price, as at least they are more reliable. Would use them, but on a tight budget so stuck with stagecoach.
ReplyDelete