what a joke why bye a company and then shut it down in few mouths ,bye say no moet to cover buses load off rubbish he problem just wanted the new buses couse buses up southhampton are old
Difficult to understand your poor grammar but here goes....
They bought what was clearly a failing business. Clearly, whilst they did due diligence, they may have subsequently discovered issues and had a worsening financial situation owing to FK's competition on some of their key services.
As for the fleet, they had a number of non DDA vehicles and the needed to address that. Selling the newest fleet was clearly one thing they had to do to enable that and to generate cash. At the end of the day, cash flow is what killed them.
Sadly, this has been a long time coming. The lustre went even before they lost the Helston contracts in 2012. Add in PZ losses, two fires and the ENCTS cuts and Western Greyhound were on the skids. FK may have pushed them to the very brink but they'd already got themselves in a bad place anyway.
I am surprised anyone is shocked by this. They have been in financial trouble for a long time. At one point the drivers were having to use the days takings to pay for fuel at commercial petrol stations because the company could not pay it's fuel supplier.
They got cocky and tried to grow faster than they should have.
Nobody *should* be shocked but plenty will be. In my experience, most enthusiasts (for example) were happy to swallow the guff put out by this company over the years. In their heyday they were doing a good job but that was in an environment where they could build a business on the back of First's constant cutbacks and be seen as the golden saviour rushing to the rescue of passengers left stranded by cold and nasty First. Once First woke up, regained the plot they'd lost, stopped trying to destroy themselves and started rebuilding with some imagination and vigour, it was never going to be so easy. Add in council cutbacks, ENCTS reductions and the fires, there was nothing to fall back on. The end was always inevitable, the shock was that someone actually bought the mid-Cornwall rump of the business in the meantime.
Another business lost to the mantra of austerity peddled by the 'Government'. It will not be the last and others will follow. The fire hastened the issues but was not the primary cause, and a lot of WG's problems stem from the breaking of council contracts midway through term, and from other issues that were allowed to fester within the business that were just not dealt with, ignored or blamed on others. You don't just walk away from the business you created without proper succession planning, perhaps shutting it down immediately after the fire would have been a more prudent solution if that was the desired exit strategy for the owners.
as i thought, asset strip the company, move money to a safe place, run whats left into the ground, suddenly close the business with no notice... blame the economy , councils, governments etc, now the administrators will come in, sell remaining assets... the MD will now go and buy another failing company, and it all happens again...........theres a company in Plymouth he can buy, it's on its way down like WGH, losing contracts and routes, run on a shoestring with poor maintenance, my prediction is Plymouth's premier independant bus company wont be here for much longer
If they were there just to asset strip....why wait 3 months? Why bother with the new website, the new registrations, all the fleet changes? Could just have registered a load of cancellations and retreated to North Cornwall??
Any logic/evidence behind the Plymouth area statement?
The cycle might not continue. There's still the question of the PI and the Traffic Commisioner can still take action against the directors and Transport Manager if they feel it's necessary, just like they did with people behind Carmel who have been banned from any involvement in running bus/coach comanies and holding an o-licence for several years.
Doesn't surprise me, the second I heard about those Velvet Cowboys taking over the business, it was pretty much all over. When they took over Velvet they tried to sort out all the issues too quickly, then it went badly wrong. Its the same with Western Greyhound. I wonder if First will look to take on some of the companies vehicles, at least now they can run the BoS livery in Cornwall.
or maybe whilst Citybus continuing with their dangerous and risky expansion plans into the country area of Cornwall (something Go Ahead) are not great at, First might fancy their chances of building up their business in Plymouth. I have seen reports that Go Plymouth Citybus are making a loss...First will put up with loses as they are, if they think they can turn it around.. Go Ahead do not...they will have to watch theirselves I think.
If they are making a profit it is certainly nowhere near the 17% that GA expect from each business unit. They will now lose on their routes in Cornwall too, Their problem is they get to greedy.. and want to put First out of business..It is not going to happen.. First will swallow any Plymouth loses in the profits the rest of Cornwall and Somerset are making, watch GA jump when the Cornwall ops drag Citybus/Go Cornwall into debt as well as losing on ridiculous and unnecsaary competition with First in Tavistock and Torpoint etc..not only are they losing money on Blue Flash etc but the competition from First on 3a and 6 has killed 2 good profit making routes..as a shareholder at GA I am not impressed and wil;l be telling the boad this at meetings I can tell you Mike. I want to pull out of Plymouth and let First have it and i know I am by no ,means the only one. It was a terrible buy and is a pain in the butt for Go Ahead in general.
Hmmm....you categorically say PCB are losing money but now say that even if they are, it's not at some arbitrary 17% - NOTE: neither do the London ops at around 9-10%.
Clearly, the strategy is a long term one from GA in that First (who are hurting too) will pack up and GA become the sole major operator and can then extract economies of scale/rationalisation. The Somerset ops are experiencing some substantial cuts (both tender and commercial reductions) and you'd wonder how long First will sustain such a position in Plymouth.
I don't know how profitable or not First in Plymouth is but even assuming it's not losing, it's being done on a virtually depreciated fleet - clearly not a long term solution. With further incursions into Mount Batten, it doesn't look like GA are ready to call it quits yet!
The sort of comments at 20:53 and 20:58 illustrate why this board becomes so difficult to read. Some comments (eg 09:29) are very insightful and rational whilst others are merely opinions but dressed up as 'facts'. Of course, this is accentuated by the ability to post anonymously and whilst I have no problem with people posting opinions, sweeping generalisations because posters are pro- or anti- either First or Go-Ahead is not helpful in the slightest.
So, if Citybus is making zero / minimal / insufficient profit, the £2million order for new buses will be cancelled, will it? Something else that can be raised at the next board meeting, then.... LOL!
We could pay a pound and see if PCB is making a profit rather than rely on Mike's assertions which come from a rather biased position. If PCB was losing money it's not something I'd expect the employees to be told about. Big growth like this consumes operating costs with the income not coming in as quickly, so it leads to reduced profits in the short term. PCB is part of Go-Ahead, and the bus division is required to produce a £100m profit by a specific date. All operating companies will therefore be required to achieve their numbers in order to produce the profit. There will no doubt be consequences for operating companies who don't achieve their targets, and we will know if this doesn't happen when PCB is either restructured with head office costs taken out of the business or a new MD position is advertised in the trade press. Blue Flash was a costly service introduction that has had to be revisited. Investing brand new double deckers onto an untried route is a risky approach, the fact they've changed approach suggests the targets were not met. PCB's performance is no doubt being closely monitored, and in businesses, people either stay in their jobs or get the sack depending on how they deliver on their budgets and business plans. First, and Stagecoach were very quick to dismiss MDs who didn't meet their targets, which is why both firms were so risk averse for so long. PCB, in taking on bits of Western Greyhound have the perfect reason for failing to meet their targets, growth like this takes time to bed in and deliver the returns, so it buys them more time to meet their figures.
So Mike (an employee) wouldn't know but someone who purports to be a small shareholder would?
There's a number of clear contradictions here. Firstly, the idea that First will tolerate losses (they didn't in Northampton, Barnstaple et al) but GA won't. Sorry but the idea that this sort of plan and investment isn't sanctioned at the highest level is just fanciful.
Also, the idea that there's some massive start up cost associated with taking on the Liskeard ops? Or some time lag in delivering results that people can hide behind? Again, these moves are part of a GA strategy.
Also, the idea that Stagecoach were risk averse is incorrect. They had a short period with the Coach USA debacle which soaked up time and capital (but unlike First and Moir's hubris, they sorted it out sharpish) they've been aggressive and innovative. Look only to North Devon!!
Of course, an earlier poster suggests that this protracted fight by First will be part financed with Somerset's profits. The apparent rowing back of some of the Somerset anti-Webberbus moves plus a number of other changes to other routes (esp. Taunton town routes) suggests otherwise.
Fact is, no one on this board probably knows the full picture but fair to say that both sides are hurting.
Just look at the Taunton cuts in a few weeks to see what first do after running competitors off the road.The 29 is back to 3 hourly and it's slowest journey time ever...as we said be careful what you wish for.First have a history of this and service levels always end up slashed to worse than they were originally.Just wait to see Cornwall after Summer...half the intended stuff First will cull.
Except that First havent run anyone off the road in Somerset - if anything, a reflection on Webberbus who have got rid of First past Cannington, and made them cut the 29 and the short 54s.
Yes Webberbus are still with us, but I am not sure how. First's anti-competition new short 54s were probably a waste of money. The 29 has lost its subsidy and suffers from the doubling of service into Wells on the 375/6/7. However the anti-competition shorts on the 21 are kept and revised to service new housing at Brittons Ash and be the main Taunton Hospital service, allowing the local 7 to sit out the traffic jams instead. First have to make money - pinch the competitors good ideas and leave them the rubbish routes.
Not true, Stagecoach were famed for their hire and fire culture in the mid 1990s, just like First were. Both got through senior management at a steady rate, with First being more keener to hire and fire, resulting in talent not going there. First, in effect are some 10 years behind Stagecoach in delivering growth from what they have, rather than buying for the sake of it. Once Stagecoach allowed their MDs to innovate, and do more with what they had, the business began to turn around and become the respected leader it is today. First's new approach of being clear on what they do and what they don't want to operate is why they are now seeing growth, because they're now prepared to develop what is there.
Fact: there were no assets to strip. Fact: WG has been in a dire financial position for a long time. Fact: the new owners presumably bought the company for nothing and it is not unreasonable to guess that, as is often the Fir case, they found things far worse than they had imagined. Opinion: the new owners were daft to buy take it on. Fact: I predicted this a few weeks ago in response to Graham's predictions. Two more to go! First's withdrawal from Plymouth and Stagecoach launching some sort of Plymouth network.
Hold on.... you're mixing up your 'facts' with your opinions.
This is not a 'fact' in any way, shape or form - "Fact: the new owners presumably bought the company for nothing and it is not unreasonable to guess that, as is often the Fir case, they found things far worse than they had imagined."
Facts don't include presumptions and guesses.
The only real asset (now that the newer buses have been sold off) is the freehold depot at Summercourt. It may be of interest to First or to a haulage company. Not sure that there's any local coach companies that may be big enough to be interested in a ready-made depot and it would be a major surprise if Go-Ahead or Stagecoach looked at it - going head to head with First in Cornwall is a completely different ball game to doing it in North Devon a few years ago.
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Only media report at the moment http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/Western-Greyhound-bus-services-Cornwall-cancelled/story-26166558-detail/story.html
ReplyDeleteAlso now on BBC Cornwall http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-31866340
ReplyDeleteHow many more times are these two people going to be allowed to use drivers and passenger s as toys in there games?
ReplyDeletewhat a joke why bye a company and then shut it down in few mouths ,bye say no moet to cover buses load off rubbish he problem just wanted the new buses couse buses up southhampton are old
ReplyDeleteDifficult to understand your poor grammar but here goes....
DeleteThey bought what was clearly a failing business. Clearly, whilst they did due diligence, they may have subsequently discovered issues and had a worsening financial situation owing to FK's competition on some of their key services.
As for the fleet, they had a number of non DDA vehicles and the needed to address that. Selling the newest fleet was clearly one thing they had to do to enable that and to generate cash. At the end of the day, cash flow is what killed them.
Southampton and BVT had nothing to do with it.
None - there's only one party left now.
ReplyDeleteSadly, this has been a long time coming. The lustre went even before they lost the Helston contracts in 2012. Add in PZ losses, two fires and the ENCTS cuts and Western Greyhound were on the skids. FK may have pushed them to the very brink but they'd already got themselves in a bad place anyway.
I am surprised anyone is shocked by this. They have been in financial trouble for a long time. At one point the drivers were having to use the days takings to pay for fuel at commercial petrol stations because the company could not pay it's fuel supplier.
ReplyDeleteThey got cocky and tried to grow faster than they should have.
Nobody *should* be shocked but plenty will be. In my experience, most enthusiasts (for example) were happy to swallow the guff put out by this company over the years. In their heyday they were doing a good job but that was in an environment where they could build a business on the back of First's constant cutbacks and be seen as the golden saviour rushing to the rescue of passengers left stranded by cold and nasty First. Once First woke up, regained the plot they'd lost, stopped trying to destroy themselves and started rebuilding with some imagination and vigour, it was never going to be so easy. Add in council cutbacks, ENCTS reductions and the fires, there was nothing to fall back on. The end was always inevitable, the shock was that someone actually bought the mid-Cornwall rump of the business in the meantime.
DeleteAnother business lost to the mantra of austerity peddled by the 'Government'. It will not be the last and others will follow.
DeleteThe fire hastened the issues but was not the primary cause, and a lot of WG's problems stem from the breaking of council contracts midway through term, and from other issues that were allowed to fester within the business that were just not dealt with, ignored or blamed on others. You don't just walk away from the business you created without proper succession planning, perhaps shutting it down immediately after the fire would have been a more prudent solution if that was the desired exit strategy for the owners.
i had a fuuny felling that something was going to happen when plymouth citybus took over some of there serivces
ReplyDeleteas i thought, asset strip the company, move money to a safe place, run whats left into the ground, suddenly close the business with no notice... blame the economy , councils, governments etc, now the administrators will come in, sell remaining assets... the MD will now go and buy another failing company, and it all happens again...........theres a company in Plymouth he can buy, it's on its way down like WGH, losing contracts and routes, run on a shoestring with poor maintenance, my prediction is Plymouth's premier independant bus company wont be here for much longer
ReplyDeleteIf they were there just to asset strip....why wait 3 months? Why bother with the new website, the new registrations, all the fleet changes? Could just have registered a load of cancellations and retreated to North Cornwall??
DeleteAny logic/evidence behind the Plymouth area statement?
The cycle might not continue. There's still the question of the PI and the Traffic Commisioner can still take action against the directors and Transport Manager if they feel it's necessary, just like they did with people behind Carmel who have been banned from any involvement in running bus/coach comanies and holding an o-licence for several years.
DeleteDoesn't surprise me, the second I heard about those Velvet Cowboys taking over the business, it was pretty much all over. When they took over Velvet they tried to sort out all the issues too quickly, then it went badly wrong. Its the same with Western Greyhound. I wonder if First will look to take on some of the companies vehicles, at least now they can run the BoS livery in Cornwall.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if first may pull out of plymouth now and concentrate on cornwall, it's no secret first make more money in kernow then plymouth
ReplyDeleteor maybe whilst Citybus continuing with their dangerous and risky expansion plans into the country area of Cornwall (something Go Ahead) are not great at, First might fancy their chances of building up their business in Plymouth. I have seen reports that Go Plymouth Citybus are making a loss...First will put up with loses as they are, if they think they can turn it around.. Go Ahead do not...they will have to watch theirselves I think.
ReplyDeleteon the contrary. plymouth citybus are actually makng a profit. get ur facts right.
DeleteIf they are making a profit it is certainly nowhere near the 17% that GA expect from each business unit. They will now lose on their routes in Cornwall too, Their problem is they get to greedy.. and want to put First out of business..It is not going to happen.. First will swallow any Plymouth loses in the profits the rest of Cornwall and Somerset are making, watch GA jump when the Cornwall ops drag Citybus/Go Cornwall into debt as well as losing on ridiculous and unnecsaary competition with First in Tavistock and Torpoint etc..not only are they losing money on Blue Flash etc but the competition from First on 3a and 6 has killed 2 good profit making routes..as a shareholder at GA I am not impressed and wil;l be telling the boad this at meetings I can tell you Mike. I want to pull out of Plymouth and let First have it and i know I am by no ,means the only one. It was a terrible buy and is a pain in the butt for Go Ahead in general.
Delete@ anon 14/3/15 20;58 oooooh
DeleteHmmm....you categorically say PCB are losing money but now say that even if they are, it's not at some arbitrary 17% - NOTE: neither do the London ops at around 9-10%.
DeleteClearly, the strategy is a long term one from GA in that First (who are hurting too) will pack up and GA become the sole major operator and can then extract economies of scale/rationalisation. The Somerset ops are experiencing some substantial cuts (both tender and commercial reductions) and you'd wonder how long First will sustain such a position in Plymouth.
I don't know how profitable or not First in Plymouth is but even assuming it's not losing, it's being done on a virtually depreciated fleet - clearly not a long term solution. With further incursions into Mount Batten, it doesn't look like GA are ready to call it quits yet!
The sort of comments at 20:53 and 20:58 illustrate why this board becomes so difficult to read. Some comments (eg 09:29) are very insightful and rational whilst others are merely opinions but dressed up as 'facts'. Of course, this is accentuated by the ability to post anonymously and whilst I have no problem with people posting opinions, sweeping generalisations because posters are pro- or anti- either First or Go-Ahead is not helpful in the slightest.
DeleteSo, if Citybus is making zero / minimal / insufficient profit, the £2million order for new buses will be cancelled, will it? Something else that can be raised at the next board meeting, then.... LOL!
We could pay a pound and see if PCB is making a profit rather than rely on Mike's assertions which come from a rather biased position. If PCB was losing money it's not something I'd expect the employees to be told about. Big growth like this consumes operating costs with the income not coming in as quickly, so it leads to reduced profits in the short term.
DeletePCB is part of Go-Ahead, and the bus division is required to produce a £100m profit by a specific date. All operating companies will therefore be required to achieve their numbers in order to produce the profit. There will no doubt be consequences for operating companies who don't achieve their targets, and we will know if this doesn't happen when PCB is either restructured with head office costs taken out of the business or a new MD position is advertised in the trade press.
Blue Flash was a costly service introduction that has had to be revisited. Investing brand new double deckers onto an untried route is a risky approach, the fact they've changed approach suggests the targets were not met.
PCB's performance is no doubt being closely monitored, and in businesses, people either stay in their jobs or get the sack depending on how they deliver on their budgets and business plans. First, and Stagecoach were very quick to dismiss MDs who didn't meet their targets, which is why both firms were so risk averse for so long.
PCB, in taking on bits of Western Greyhound have the perfect reason for failing to meet their targets, growth like this takes time to bed in and deliver the returns, so it buys them more time to meet their figures.
So Mike (an employee) wouldn't know but someone who purports to be a small shareholder would?
DeleteThere's a number of clear contradictions here. Firstly, the idea that First will tolerate losses (they didn't in Northampton, Barnstaple et al) but GA won't. Sorry but the idea that this sort of plan and investment isn't sanctioned at the highest level is just fanciful.
Also, the idea that there's some massive start up cost associated with taking on the Liskeard ops? Or some time lag in delivering results that people can hide behind? Again, these moves are part of a GA strategy.
Also, the idea that Stagecoach were risk averse is incorrect. They had a short period with the Coach USA debacle which soaked up time and capital (but unlike First and Moir's hubris, they sorted it out sharpish) they've been aggressive and innovative. Look only to North Devon!!
Of course, an earlier poster suggests that this protracted fight by First will be part financed with Somerset's profits. The apparent rowing back of some of the Somerset anti-Webberbus moves plus a number of other changes to other routes (esp. Taunton town routes) suggests otherwise.
Fact is, no one on this board probably knows the full picture but fair to say that both sides are hurting.
Just look at the Taunton cuts in a few weeks to see what first do after running competitors off the road.The 29 is back to 3 hourly and it's slowest journey time ever...as we said be careful what you wish for.First have a history of this and service levels always end up slashed to worse than they were originally.Just wait to see Cornwall after Summer...half the intended stuff First will cull.
DeleteExcept that First havent run anyone off the road in Somerset - if anything, a reflection on Webberbus who have got rid of First past Cannington, and made them cut the 29 and the short 54s.
DeleteYes Webberbus are still with us, but I am not sure how. First's anti-competition new short 54s were probably a waste of money. The 29 has lost its subsidy and suffers from the doubling of service into Wells on the 375/6/7. However the anti-competition shorts on the 21 are kept and revised to service new housing at Brittons Ash and be the main Taunton Hospital service, allowing the local 7 to sit out the traffic jams instead. First have to make money - pinch the competitors good ideas and leave them the rubbish routes.
DeleteNot true, Stagecoach were famed for their hire and fire culture in the mid 1990s, just like First were. Both got through senior management at a steady rate, with First being more keener to hire and fire, resulting in talent not going there. First, in effect are some 10 years behind Stagecoach in delivering growth from what they have, rather than buying for the sake of it. Once Stagecoach allowed their MDs to innovate, and do more with what they had, the business began to turn around and become the respected leader it is today.
DeleteFirst's new approach of being clear on what they do and what they don't want to operate is why they are now seeing growth, because they're now prepared to develop what is there.
Fact: there were no assets to strip. Fact: WG has been in a dire financial position for a long time. Fact: the new owners presumably bought the company for nothing and it is not unreasonable to guess that, as is often the Fir case, they found things far worse than they had imagined. Opinion: the new owners were daft to buy take it on. Fact: I predicted this a few weeks ago in response to Graham's predictions. Two more to go! First's withdrawal from Plymouth and Stagecoach launching some sort of Plymouth network.
ReplyDeleteHold on.... you're mixing up your 'facts' with your opinions.
DeleteThis is not a 'fact' in any way, shape or form - "Fact: the new owners presumably bought the company for nothing and it is not unreasonable to guess that, as is often the Fir case, they found things far worse than they had imagined."
Facts don't include presumptions and guesses.
The only real asset (now that the newer buses have been sold off) is the freehold depot at Summercourt. It may be of interest to First or to a haulage company. Not sure that there's any local coach companies that may be big enough to be interested in a ready-made depot and it would be a major surprise if Go-Ahead or Stagecoach looked at it - going head to head with First in Cornwall is a completely different ball game to doing it in North Devon a few years ago.